Atheolous

Sometimes I find that common, every day slang is the most concise way to make a point, and this why I have to say that Campingite Dan Stevens is a real "tool". In Latter Rain Msg. #44956 teacher Dan tries to make yet another case for a pre-creation atonement by citing tenses used in the biblical records of the last supper and the shed blood of the prophets who lived after the creation of the world.

STEVENS: "YLT -- Matthew 26:28 for this is my blood of the new covenant, that for many is being poured out--to remission of sins;

"...Again the verbs used in both verses in Luke and Matthew are identical in tense, voice and mood, and therefore should be translated identically, which the YLT does. So at a minimum this verse indicates that the shedding of Jesus' blood (for the remission of sins) was already occurring at the time of the last supper. And, as pointed out earlier, it is important to recognize that this statement was made before Jesus went to the cross, or stepped foot in Gethsemane, or was taken captive. Further, as seen in Luke 11:50, a present tense verb does not prohibit the action of the verb from beginning earlier, even as early as "from the foundation of the world". So all these things are a problem for those thinking Jesus shed blood at Calvary to atone for sins."

Dan the Tool would like us to be his tools and forget one very important fact. The symbolic ritual of the Lord's supper that continued into the New Testament was to bring to our remembrance the shed blood of Christ at Calvary. The fact that it was to be a ritual of remembering the atonement - which was about to occur very shortly after the last supper - made the use of past and present tenses very appropriate. When we remember the Lord's death, the event becomes both past and present in our minds.

I was recently reading the passages of the last supper and wondering when the tenses used in those verses would be cited by the Campingites as proof for their pre-creation atonement heresy. Now that Dan has done so, the utter desperation of Camping's followers to reject the "old paths" (Jer. 6:16) in favor of Harold Camping's new paths is, sadly, also brought to remembrance.

Be a tool for the Lord, not these date setting kooks.

Bible teacher Harold Camping will tell us that the "daughter of Jerusalem" in Lamentations 2:13 refers to the corporate churches - after the true believers have departed out. Why? Because the language there suggests that the "daughter of Jerusalem" is in trouble with God and in need of healing.

La 2:13 What thing shall I take to witness for thee? what thing shall I liken to thee, O daughter of Jerusalem? what shall I equal to thee, that I may comfort thee, O virgin daughter of Zion? for thy breach is great like the sea: who can heal thee?

And yet, this date-predicting Bible expert will tell us that the very same "daughter of Jerusalem" in verses like Zephaniah 3:14 and 9:9 refers to the true believers - before they have departed out. Why? Because in these verses, God is revealing His love and mercy to her.

Zep 3:14 Sing, O daughter of Zion; shout, O Israel; be glad and rejoice with all the heart, O daughter of Jerusalem.

Zec 9:9 Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass.

Is this kind of teaching okay with you? It seems like Mr. Camping's followers simply are not really listening to what their chronos god is teaching them. Camping's teaching seems to be a lot of white noise in the background that no one really cares about. As long as his followers think they know something most everyone else doesn't know, they couldn't care less about all the glaring inconsistencies and tough questions that cannot be resolved. They just keep harping on their trusty old "the seals are now opened!" nonsense to make all their contradictions seem okay. Harold Camping does not understand who the believers are in the Bible any more than he understands what "time and judgment" means.

Ec 8:5 Whoso keepeth the commandment shall feel no evil thing: and a wise man’s heart discerneth both time and judgment.
6 ¶ Because to every purpose there is time and judgment, therefore the misery of man is great upon him.
7 For he knoweth not that which shall be: for who can tell him when it shall be?

Time and judgment relates to the misery of "man". No man knows that which shall be: For who can tell him when it shall be? Who? Mr. Camping?

The "daughter of Jerusalem", the "daughter of Zion", the "house of God", etc. are not terms that can vary in meaning. The nation of Israel was used as type of God's chosen people in the world, not as a type of the non-elect. We don't study and learn from the Bible by relating to only verses of mercy and forgiveness and pawning off the harsh warnings from God onto the tares of the world. We are not to read a verse or passage and then decide that the believers have departed out because the language expresses God's wrath. If we don't relate to verses that expose our sin and guilt and need for repentance and forgiveness, then we have a very sick gospel.

He 12:7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

Isa 4:1 And in that day seven women shall take hold of one man, saying, We will eat our own bread, and wear our own apparel: only let us be called by thy name, to take away our reproach.

What is really going on here? The usual blame-the-churches teaching claims that the seven women of Isaiah 4:1 refers to the churches who refuse to eat the bread of Christ, but hypocritically desire to be called by His name. I don't go along with this teaching. I am now sure that the seven women are the believers, just as all seven churches of Revelation 2 are the believers.

Of course, if you have been sufficiently trained by false teachers like Harold Camping to see the churches where you should see the true believers under judgment, you will also say that Isaiah 4:1 is about the churches wanting only the name of Jesus Christ. That would be the superficial understanding, quite separate from the context.

On the other hand, if you have been freed from the bondage of false teachers, you may see, as I do, that the daughters of Zion in Isaiah 3 are the true believers who have been stripped of the fancy ornaments, rings, nose jewels and changeable suits of apparel they collected and adopted as their own while captives of the world around them. Notice the same language of Isaiah 4:1 in Isaiah 3:6-7. These two passages are identical twins.

Is 3:6 When a man shall take hold of his brother of the house of his father, saying, Thou hast clothing, be thou our ruler, and let this ruin be under thy hand:
7 In that day shall he swear, saying, I will not be an healer; for in my house is neither bread nor clothing: make me not a ruler of the people.

In these verses, the search is on for a shepherd to make everything right. When the daughters of Zion suddenly find themselves left desolate with stink instead of a sweet smell, a rent girdle, baldness instead of well set hair and burning instead of beauty (Is. 3:24), they repent. The continuous cycle is always sin, judgment, repentance and mercy. Thus, they take hold of the Lord Jesus and confess that they will be content with the bread and clothing already supplied by Him, as long as they can be called by His name.

Similar language is also found in the account of the death of David's son, which ended the sad episode of David's own terrible fall:

2Sa 12:20 Then David arose from the earth, and washed, and anointed himself, and changed his apparel, and came into the house of the LORD, and worshipped: then he came to his own house; and when he required, they set bread before him, and he did eat.

After a few years of pondering, I am certain that Isaiah 4:1 shows the repentance of the elect, not the disobedience of the unsaved in the churches. "Repentance". Remember that archaic word?

At the present moment I am listening to Harold Camping's Lesson #45 on the book of Lamentations. The subject text is Lamentations 2:12 and 13. Blind Mr. Camping and his equally blind followers sincerely believe that this verse, chapter and book is about the corporate church. They are unable to recognize that this passage is all about, guess who? The two witnesses who are the children and sucklings who swoon in the streets (NOT the churches), even as they represent the entire body of Christ during the final tribulation.

Hello, two witnesses!

La 2:11 Mine eyes do fail with tears, my bowels are troubled, my liver is poured upon the earth, for the destruction of the daughter of my people; because the children and the sucklings swoon in the streets of the city.
12 They say to their mothers, Where is corn and wine? when they swooned as the wounded in the streets of the city, when their soul was poured out into their mothers’ bosom.

Continue reading, and see if you, too, can recognize the two witnesses who lie dead and unburied in the street (not the church or temple) to be mocked by those who pass by. Here, in Lamentations 2, is the rejoicing and merry-making by those that dwell upon the earth.

La 2:15 All that pass by clap their hands at thee; they hiss and wag their head at the daughter of Jerusalem, saying, Is this the city that men call The perfection of beauty, The joy of the whole earth?
16 All thine enemies have opened their mouth against thee: they hiss and gnash the teeth: they say, We have swallowed her up: certainly this is the day that we looked for; we have found, we have seen it.
17 The LORD hath done that which he had devised; he hath fulfilled his word that he had commanded in the days of old: he hath thrown down, and hath not pitied: and he hath caused thine enemy to rejoice over thee, he hath set up the horn of thine adversaries.

How can Lamentations 2 be about the corporate churches when the language so perfectly describes the two witnesses after their testimony is finished? Do your own comparison. Read for yourselves, Sheeple!

Hello, two witnesses!

Re 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

Who is "the daughter of my people" or "the daughter of Jerusalem"? They are the churches, says Camping. Who are their enemies who pass them by? The true believers are passing by, says Camping, and they are clapping their hands and hissing at the corporate church members who are swooning in the streets.

Obviously, Mr. Camping has it all completely backwards, upside down and inside out. His teaching could not be more perverted. He claims that the Churches are the daughter of Jerusalem who are swooning in the streets (not the churches) and the true believers are the ones who pass them by while clapping their hands, hissing and wagging their head. Just wait until Harold gets to Lamentations 2:16 when he will have to come up with a very clever way to explain why the believers say this about the churches:

"We have swallowed her up: certainly this is the day that we looked for..."

Hmmm. How will Mr. Camping ever explain such an arrogant boast coming from the true believers? Why would they clap their hands, hiss, wag their head and say that this is the day that they looked for? I may not get to hear Mr. Camping's explanation, but I'm sure it will be interesting, to say the least. More likely than not, verse 16 will be another one of the many verses that are carefully skimmed over in favor of a lot of blathering about anything and everything, except what the verse says. Camping is very skilled at getting past any verse that is too hard, even for him to explain away.

Does this novel idea of believers clapping their hands, hissing and wagging our heads over the sight of swooning churchites come from the seals being opened? I never heard such a teaching in my entire life. How exactly do the believers "swallow up" the churches? So many questions for Mr. Camping that will never be asked.

In today's Lesson #45 on Lamentations, Mr. Camping explains to his audience how we can know that "all those who pass by" the daughters of Jerusalem who are swooning in the street are the true believers. This is almost too unbelievable for me to even type out, but someone has to do it. Are you ready for this explanation? I mean, are you sitting down? Here, in 2nd Samuel 24:5 is the Old Testament proof that Mr. Camping points us to in his attempt to have us believe that the daughter of Jerusalem refers to the Churchites and those who pass them by in a very proud and haughty manner are the true believers:

2Sa 24:5 And they passed over Jordan, and pitched in Aroer, on the right side of the city that lieth in the midst of the river of Gad, and toward Jazer:

The rule, according to Mr. Camping, is that whenever we read "passed by" or "passed over", we can be sure that the true believers are doing the passing. No one else.

I kid you not, dear readers. I have no need to make stories up. You really have to pay attention to this man's teaching to see how serious the brainwashing is for many who are asleep at the wheel. True, the date setting is bad. The demonstration teaching is bad. But so is the inability to recognize who the true believers are in the Scriptures. It's pretty much all bad. How much perverting can one man do on his own? I would suggest, just as much as the pastors do as a group. And that is a lot.

To conclude, I leave you with this reminder from Peter:

1Pe 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

Judgment, good. Not bad. Don't pass it on to anyone else.

A clever way to preserve a cherished false doctrine is to highlight only certain words in a verse or passage that seems to prove your case. Take 1st Thessalonians 5:4 for example.

1Th 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

The date setting Campingites always emphasize the phrase "but YE brethren are not in darkness", while letting the rest of the verse, "that that day should overtake you as a thief" trail off in a hushed tone, as if it doesn't exist. Well, it does indeed exist. It is recorded for us in the Bible to teach us that the day comes as a thief for all, and the brethren who are in the Light will not be overtaken by it. They are worthy to escape "all these things" that are outlined in Luke 21, just as the goodman of the house who is watching will not suffer his house to be broken up.

The Churchites use the same clever trickery when seeking to accuse those of us who have wisely departed out of their Sunday tare meetings of being in rebellion against God. Take 1st Corinthians 11:25-26 for example.

1Co 11:25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.

26 For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord’s death till he come.

Of course, the Churchites love to dare the dearly departed-out to 'splain how one can legally depart out if we are to observe the Lord's death by this ritual "till he come". They have no use whatsoever for the phrase "as oft as ye" in verse 25, which is repeated by "as often as ye" in verse 26, lest we try to ignore it as the Churchites choose to do.

The Greek word translated as "oft as ye" is "hosakis", Strong's #3740. It is also found in Revelation 11:6:

Re 11:6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often <3740> as they will.

The two witnesses are given power over the waters and the earth "as often as they will", but their ability to do so is gone when their testimony is finished and they are overcome and killed and lie dead in the street of the great city. The word "hosakis" is used to contrast the use of time restrictions.

As I understand the church ritual of communion, it is up to the ruling body of each local church to decide how often the Lord's death is to be observed "till he come". Oh, how they all wish that God had included a time restriction so that they didn't have to draw straws and seem so estranged from other denominations who drew different straws. Some churches observe the Lord's death every day, Other churches once a week. Other churches, twice a month. Other churches, once a month. Other churches, once every two months. Other churches, twice a year. Did you ever notice a pattern of "as oft as ye" in the churches' observance of the Lord's communion table? Where would the time restriction be found in the scriptures that prohibits the observance of the Lord's table once every two years, or once every five, ten, fifteen, twenty, thirty or fifty years? Any restriction for a hundred years or two hundred years? If you find one, please send it over.

If you take the time to point out the repeated phrase "as oft as ye" to the Churchites, they will say, "Oh, yeah, that's true". And yet, they will continue to harp on "till he come" as if we are to partake of the communion ritual continuously, every milli-second, until the Lord returns. People really do hear only what they want to hear.

Would it be a violation of the commands of scriptures if the Lord returned, for example, in January, and we have not observed His death through the ritual of communion since the previous September? What about two or three Septembers ago? Where are the biblical rules for just how often we are to observe the Lord's death? We really can't be vague or wishy washy about these questions. If someone who really cares about the departed-out would let us know the answer, maybe we would rush back to your hallowed halls and get right with God.

The Churchites will never focus their attention on the phrase "as oft as ye" because it cancels out their heavy reliance on "till he comes" as reason to remain dug in, in spite of all the blatant apostasy. They are just as loyal to their pastors and church fathers as the Campingites are to Mr. C.

Words mean things. All words.

Re 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

It really doesn't matter if the original text says "great tribulation" or "the great tribulation". All elect are told that they must endure unto the end. Was Moses, Daniel and David supposed to endure unto the end? Were the Apostles? Are we, if we are Christ's?

Mt 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Mr 13:13 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name’s sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

All members of Christ's body are "one" with each other and also with Christ. Just as Jesus was one with the Father, believers are also one with the rest of the body.

All elect come out of the great tribulation as one completed, unified and perfected body.

Joh 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

A lot of false doctrines today must overlook this important doctrine. There is never any separation of the members of the body.

1 Cor. 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
14 For the body is not one member, but many.
15 If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
16 And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
17 If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling?
18 But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him.
19 And if they were all one member, where were the body?
20 But now are they many members, yet but one body.
21 And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.
22 Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary:
23 And those members of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness.
24 For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that part which lacked:
25 That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another.
26 And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it.

It is impossible that the description of the great multitude of Revelation 7:14 is describing only part of the body of Christ.

The description of the "great multitude" of Revelation 7:14:

Re 7:15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.
16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.
17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

If I am the eye, the scriptures say that I need the hand and if I am the head, I need the feet. How can that teaching turn into one body during the church age and another body after the church age? All members endure unto the end as one body. All members are the great multitude that comes out of the great tribulation.

It's so much easier when we don't let teachers get in the way. There is one whole great multitude and one whole great tribulation.

We always get what we deserve and so I deserve agita for straying into Departoutworld on the other side of the tracts. I know there is nothing interesting going on there, especially during this season of merriment, but I did spot Pope Peter X's Christmas message. As you read the following message from Peterx, I would like you to picture him standing on a high balcony in St. Peter's Square, donned in the finest priestly finery. Picture his beaming face and his arms spread wide in a loving gesture of gathering his multitude of worshippers below him unto himself. Immediately after his prayer for Middle East peace, Pope Peter issued this stern warning against the Family Radio date setters on behalf of the entire church:

POPE: "We have stopped taking them too seriously for quite a while now. Thankfully, my ~~posts~~ homilies are available to witness against their playground accusations. They have been refuted by the scriptures on countless occasions. Their response has been to hide behind their well-rehearsed camping mantra ...

But let us say in a nutshell in reply to their quibbles, they have their exclusive collection of Camping's heretical books to interpret the Bible for them. We agree with the testimony of Christ's Church. May 22 will show them to be blind heretics in need of great repentance. These modern day pharisees and false accusers of the brethren require a heavy hand of reproof as is the testimony of scripture and the Church of Christ."

Just two comments about the Pope's message. First, I am just as anti-Camping as he is, but I am not thankful (as he humbly suggests) that his posts are available. One reason is because he is always speaking on behalf of all other Churchers who are all sheep following other sheep and love it when others speak on their behalf. With Peter, it's always "we", "we", "we", "we", "we" all the way home.

My other comment concerns this quote by Peterx: "We agree with the testimony of Christ's Church."

The testimony of "Christ's Church"? What about the testimony of the scriptures? You see, the testimony of God's direct word is not enough for Peterx to stand on. He stands on the shoulders of his many pastors and church fathers. He and the rest of the Pastorites he speaks for live only to protect their local church home where their cherished Sunday School stories and rituals are preserved for posterity.

But then, Peterx says, "...a heavy hand of reproof as is the testimony of scripture and the Church of Christ."

I always find that a lot can be learned from body language, and also the juxtaposition of lower case and capitalization. So, it looks like Peter does agree with the testimony of scripture. But, alas, also the "Church of Christ". According to the Pastorites, they are a team. Scripture + Church of Christ = truth.

The incarnation of Jesus Christ was a major event for certain wise men of another country and for the angels. The shepherds praised God when they witnessed what they heard, but we are not told the reason why. The scriptures only say that they were shepherds who served as messengers of the news and that they praised God for the miraculous event. Many people were expecting a Messiah who would free them from their politcal oppressors. The wise men understood the need to bestow honor upon the Lord Jesus (rather than upon each other), but they came from afar. As Jesus pointed out, a prophet has no honour in his own country (John 4:44).

If we want to understand the earthly walk of Jesus Christ in order to know if He is in us and we in Him, we only have to read Isaiah 53:3 to see if we can relate at all. We find there a very detailed description of Jesus' true status.

First, Jesus was despised. When we read verses such as Obadiah 1:2, it is ludicrous to think that the prophets of God were sent to the unsaved tares of the church. However, that is how a lot of Christians have been trained to read the scriptures.

Ob 1:2 Behold, I have made thee small among the heathen: thou art greatly despised.

Next, Jesus was rejected of men. The word "rejected" in Isaiah 53:3 is translasted as "frail" in Psalm 39:4.

Ps 39:4 LORD, make me to know mine end, and the measure of my days, what it is; that I may know how frail I am.

Jesus was also a man of sorrows. Again, if you don't see yourself as the "wicked" in need of the Lord's mercy, that is certainly your choice. You will surely find lots of others who will bolster your view. Just join any church or Family Radio group and you will get lots of assurance that you are already perfect and that "wicked" refers to the other guy.

Ps 32:10 Many sorrows shall be to the wicked: but he that trusteth in the LORD, mercy shall compass him about.

Ec 1:18 For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow.

Finally, Jesus was also acquainted with grief. We find both "acquainted" (Strong's #03045) and "grief" (#02483) in Deuteronomy 7:15.

De 7:15 And the LORD will take away from thee all sickness <02483>, and will put none of the evil diseases of Egypt, which thou knowest <03045>, upon thee; but will lay them upon all them that hate thee.

So, there is no jolliness and no celebrations. Joy cometh in the morning. In the meantime, blessed are they who mourn. There is a time for everything and this is the reason James reminds us over and over of the need for patience throughout all five chapters of his book.

Ec 3:4 A time to weep, and a time to laugh; a time to mourn, and a time to dance;

The first coming of Jesus Christ is not a reason for celebration as it introduces another long wait for the Savior to come again on the clouds of heaven. The incarnation of the Lord Jesus was just the beginning of His sorrowful life, so true believers observe the event quietly and soberly in our hearts and minds. We are the quintessential Scrooges in the world.

Lu 23:26 ¶ And as they led him away, they laid hold upon one Simon, a Cyrenian, coming out of the country, and on him they laid the cross, that he might bear it after Jesus.
27 And there followed him a great company of people, and of women, which also bewailed and lamented him.
28 But Jesus turning unto them said, Daughters of Jerusalem, weep not for me, but weep for yourselves, and for your children.
29 For, behold, the days are coming, in the which they shall say, Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the paps which never gave suck.
30 Then shall they begin to say to the mountains, Fall on us; and to the hills, Cover us.
31 For if they do these things in a green tree, what shall be done in the dry?

Greetings to all and to all a good morning. You probably thought my December 25th post would be about Satan's Christmas, didn't you? Perhaps a word study on the word "manger"? A close-up of Luke 2:14? Definitive Biblical proof that Jesus was not born on December 25th? No, sorry. I no longer partake. I go where the Spirit leads, not where you-know-who leads. If you seek a pre-church service Christmas fix, there is a holiday party going on over at Departoutworld (General Discussion). I confess, I got a little teary-eyed reading some of the Christmas wishes being exchanged and started to yearn for the company of such warm-hearted Christians. I thought it would be nice to join in all the peace, good will and holiday prayers. And then I sobered up.

It's hard to extract any edible food for thought from Departout as they pray for one another for the holidays, so while they are being uncooperative, I will instead highlight a good question asked on Family Radio's Closed Open Forum program, either last week or the week before that. The caller asked Harold Camping to explain the significance of Simon of Cyrene who took up Jesus' cross as Jesus was on His way to die and atone for His elect on Calvary.

Mt 27:32 And as they came out, they found a man of Cyrene, Simon by name: him they compelled to bear his cross.

Not surprisingly, Mr. Camping admitted that he did not know the spiritual message being conveyed by this event. His main business is about date prediction and these little nuances about the gospel only get in his way. They take up too much time that could be better spent on the world-wide earthquake he has scheduled for just a few months from now. Who cares about Simon the Cyrene when the world is going to end before we get to celebrate another joyous Christmas holiday?

I care, that's who. There is a very important spiritual message to learn from Simon's act of taking up Jesus' cross. The fact is, the cross we are to take up is the same cross of Jesus Christ.

Mt 16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

While growing up in the church, Matthew 16:24 was a major theme since there was very little eschatology to be heard. That is why I was attracted to Harold Camping. Camping was focused on eschatology which is something that should be focused on, but not to the extreme extent of date-predicting. In any case, my pastor's messages about taking up our cross to follow Jesus never seemed to go very far. They always seemed to convey a worldly message of coping with sickness, poverty or other hardships in life. I never heard a message that connected the taking up of our cross with experiencing the wrath of God along with the Savior's atonement or the death of the two witnesses.

The need to take up our cross to experience the same wrath of God which Jesus endured is found all through the scriptures, starting with the killing of Abel by his brother while they talked in a field and ending with the killing of the two witnesses. Cain and Abel were two men in a field, just as there are two in the field when "one" is taken in Matthew 24 and Luke 17. Abel was the one who was taken to be part of the carcase that the eagles were invited to devour.

Eze 39:17 And, thou son of man, thus saith the Lord GOD; Speak unto every feathered fowl, and to every beast of the field, Assemble yourselves, and come; gather yourselves on every side to my sacrifice that I do sacrifice for you, even a great sacrifice upon the mountains of Israel, that ye may eat flesh, and drink blood.

The act of taking up our cross is an act that all believers engage in as a body, as well as individually. The believers are killed "all the day long" They/we all died in Abel, just as Abel continues to die in the rest of the body of Christ. The believers are all "one" with each other and with Jesus Christ (1st Cor. 12).

Abel was the believers' representative in the field. Moses was the represenative in the wilderness. Daniel was the representative in captivty. David was the representative in the kingdom. Paul and the Apostles were our representatives in the whole world. Then we come to Simon, who took up the cross on behalf of Jesus, His Lord. After Simon, we come to the forgiven thief who actually died on a cross in earshot of Jesus. All of these believers comprise the two witnesses of Revelation who finally reach the end of their tesimony and lie dead and exposed to be shamed in the street of the great city. They are not pretending to be dead. They die the death of all those who are under the same wrath of God that Jesus died under.

Taking up our cross, the same cross Jesus was nailed to, is not being courageous in the face of adversity. It is understanding the wrath of God that Jesus endured for us - if we are His.

Trying to explain judgment to self-righteous Churchites and Campingites who believe they only sin in their flesh is like trying to explain heaven to bears.

1Pe 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

Look, I'm just as sappy as the next gal or guy. So, this is my sentimental 2010 Un-Christmas message about time and judgment. May your heart be fixed on Christ, the fully grown man of sorrows who died in your place as you patiently endure tribulation as a captive in the world on Satan's holidays - and every day.

Re 13:10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

Churchite: "Yes we did die spiritually in Adam, but that happened only once. There is no second death of our soul."

One of the worst of all false doctrines the Churchites share in common with their Campingite adversaries is the one stated above. Even the staunchest anti-Camping Pastorites believe Harold Camping's teaching on Genesis 2:17.

Ge 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Mr. Camping and all the Campingites and Churchites who prefer to study men, rather than their Bibles, will tell us that Genesis 2:17 means that Adam and Eve died spiritually at the very moment they ate of the forbidden fruit.

God told Adam that he would die, not that he would die spiritually. Here again, we see how men so easily twist the gospel into their own images. Surely, if God meant that all men would die in the spiritual sense, He would have made that clear. Many are convinced that Adam and Eve died spiritually after eating of the fruit because God said "in the day that thou eatest thereof...".

Lazy man-lovers who parrot the words of their favorite false shepherds would never dream of taking time out of their busy days to check what they accept from their pastors as the word of God. That would mean that they don't really trust their false shepherds and their false shepherds wouldn't like that very much. I will now prove just how weak in understanding the pious churchites are, the same ones who condemn Camping followers for following a false teacher, even as they cling to their own church fathers for dear life.

The Hebrew word used for "in the day" in Genesis 2:17 is "yown" (Strong's #03117). Here is the same word "yowm", in the following verses.

Ge 2:4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,

Was the earth and the heavens created in one day? Or in six days?

Ex 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

Was the psalmist's trouble only experienced in the context of one 24-hour day?

Ps 77:2 In the day of my trouble I sought the Lord: my sore ran in the night, and ceased not: my soul refused to be comforted.

Obviously, the phrase "in the day" refers to an unspecified period of time.

"Living Soul"

Adam was not alive spiritually until he was given spiritual life, but he was initially made only as a "living soul".

Here is "living soul" translated in Genesis 1:21:

Ge 1:21 And God created great whales, and every living <02416> creature <05315> that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

The fact that what God made was "very good" does not mean that Adam was created spiritually alive or "perfect".

Ge 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

God also determined that His creation was "not good":

Ge 2:18 And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.

Adam died as a whole personality in the day that he ate of the fruit, over 900 years later.

Ge 5:5 And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died.

Watch ye,
stand fast in the faith,
quit you like men,
be strong.
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood,
but against principalities,
against powers,
against the rulers of the darkness of this world,
against spiritual wickedness in high places.

Da 3:8 ¶ Wherefore at that time certain Chaldeans came near, and accused the Jews.
9 They spake and said to the king Nebuchadnezzar, O king, live for ever.
10 Thou, O king, hast made a decree, that every man that shall hear the sound of the cornet, flute, harp, sackbut, psaltery, and dulcimer, and all kinds of musick, shall fall down and worship the golden image:
11 And whoso falleth not down and worshippeth, that he should be cast into the midst of a burning fiery furnace.
12 There are certain Jews whom thou hast set over the affairs of the province of Babylon, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego; these men, O king, have not regarded thee: they serve not thy gods, nor worship the golden image which thou hast set up.

The Christmas Story:

"Radiant beams from Thy holy face"

The Bible:

"For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him. He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not." Isaiah 53:2-3

The Christmas Story:

"Sleep in heavenly peace"

The Bible:

"The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all:)

That word, I say, ye know, which was published throughout all Judaea, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached;

How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.

And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree:

Him God raised up the third day, and shewed him openly;

Not to all the people, but unto witnesses chosen before of God, even to us, who did eat and drink with him after he rose from the dead.

And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead." Acts 10:36-42

I am starting to believe that Christmas is the real Halloween after the October 31st preview because of the subtlety of it. It makes a mockery out of the doctrine of Jesus' incarnation, as well as the rest of the gospel. If you need biblical support to rationalize your need for Christmas, Harold Camping offers Luke 2:14 when asked if Christmas is to be observed by believers.

Lu 2:13 And suddenly there was with the angel a multitude of the heavenly host praising God, and saying,
14 Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good will toward men.

This verse is one of Harold's proofs that God wants us to set aside a day to cut down or buy artificial trees to decorate along with our homes, exchange presents with our friends and family and sing man-made hymns about the birth of Jesus. This is a good example of the very common practice of manipulating a verse or passage of a recorded event to try to prove that a command is given for the believers. There is not one word in the verses cited by Mr. Camping that even hints that believers are to make the birth of Jesus an annual observance by partipating in the above named activities. Harold apparently finds it very easy to say, "Yes, we can celebrate Christmas. Oh, sure, we know that it is a commercial focus for the world, and we know that Jesus was not born on December 25th, but we can certainly observe the day if we want to." The problem is, God does not tell us that we are to celebrate Christmas and, therefore, it is strange fire set before the Lord.

Every day during this holiday season, I am seeing more and more how utterly grotesque Christmas is. I felt a chill today as I passed by a life-sized bust of Frankenstein prominently perched atop a co-worker's cubicle. He normally wears a Yankees baseball cap, but today he was wearing a large, red, cone-shaped Santa Claus hat with the words, "Ho, Ho, Ho" and below that, "Bah, Humbug!" Everywhere I look, I see lights and other decorations. Some are elegant and creative, some are cute, and some are sinister, like Franken-Claus. I often catch myself habitually participating in the traditional holiday in certain small ways, like displaying Christmas cards sent to me by my co-workers. After a while, they bothered me and I took them down. I have to keep asking myself, 'Why are you doing this'?

Today I was thinking about the two witnessses of Revelation 11 who are overcome, killed and left unburied. The unsaved mark their celebration over the two witnesses' demise by making merry and sending gifts to one another. We find mention of such rejoicing in several places in the Bible, such as:

Ps 25:2 O my God, I trust in thee: let me not be ashamed, let not mine enemies triumph over me.

Ps 35:24 Judge me, O LORD my God, according to thy righteousness; and let them not rejoice over me.

Mic 7:8 Rejoice not against me, O mine enemy: when I fall, I shall arise; when I sit in darkness, the LORD shall be a light unto me.

I have never heard an explanation for the exchanging of gifts by the people who dwell upon the earth, but it naturally does bring Christmas to mind every time I read it. I don't know what else to connect it to.

Re 11:9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

The popular idea that gift-giving is the way we are to celebrate Jesus' birth is absurd. How can a new bike, a CD, bottle of perfume, a new sweater, iPad, golf clubs or any "must have" toy make the reality of Ephesians 2:8 any more meaningful or significant?

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

What makes Christmas abhorent to me is that it makes us all think constantly of "baby Jesus" being born. This is not the gospel message we are supposed to focus on. Jesus' birth is certainly an important doctrine, but it should not be emphasized above any other aspect of His life and death.

Yesterday, Chris McCann cautioned his flock to think twice about giving someone a Christmas gift like a novel because they may not have time to finish it. Chris has his own favorite Bible verses to cite as support for observing Christmas. They are:

Mt 7:11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?

Lu 11:13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

Do you see the proof for observing Christmas in these verses? No? Neither do I. There is no way to get around the fact that Christmas is Satan's masterstroke.

Jer 25:6 And go not after other gods to serve them, and to worship them, and provoke me not to anger with the works of your hands; and I will do you no hurt.

Da 3:18 But if not, be it known unto thee, O king, that we will not serve thy gods, nor worship the golden image which thou hast set up.

Jos 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

Jer 44:3 Because of their wickedness which they have committed to provoke me to anger, in that they went to burn incense, and to serve other gods, whom they knew not, neither they, ye, nor your fathers.

A lot of professing Christians loathe Halloween, as they should, but the holiday ('holy day") we call "Christmas" remains a respectable Christian/church-related tradition. For me, Christmas is just as scary as Halloween, but I'm now in control of it instead of vice versa. A lot of serious believers will say that the tradition is a good one to preserve because the unsaved world gets to hear Christmas carols and possibly think about Jesus a little more than they normally would. In other words, the holiday, with all the lights, decorations, gifts and eggnog is supposed to be a door opener for the witnesses of the gospel of Christ. I'm sorry I have to sound like Mrs. Scrooge, but I don't think that the holiday of Christmas is necessary or even appropriate as a witnessing tool or opportunity.

A few years ago, I started to realize how draining Satan's Christmas was on me, and that it brought me no real joy or satisfaction. In fact, it only served to arouse all kinds of sentimentality. There is a high that comes from "getting into the spirit" of it all, and what goes up always must come down. I knew that there is no "season" that should make me feel different than any other season if I am a true believer and walking with Jesus as I should. I came to realize that all "holidays" are based on the world's traditions that only serve to profit merchants and reunite family members in one place on the same day. Like Easter, the holiday of Christmas is really all about people and things. And madness. I would rather be with the Jews at the movies on Satan's Christmas (and Sundays) than with the Christians in one of the churches.

I had some prior experience in shedding my traditional worldly ways when I learned that Sunday is not to be observed as holy. After many years of church brainwashing I had to practice acting "normal" on Sunday by doing the things I do on every other day, which, by the way, include spiritual disciplines. My Sunday holiday training helped me to decide to start my own tradition of gift-giving throughout the year - except during Satan's Christmas season. I don't just buy Christmas gifts at different times of the year. I buy "April" gifts which I only give spontaneously when I come across something that makes me think of someone. I do not send holiday greeting cards and my home is free from all symbols of the the world's holiday. For eleven months out of the year I usually tune in to certain Family Radio programming because it helps to keep me grounded. But these days the station wants to cram its cherished traditional Christmas carols down my throat, so from mid-December to the start of the new year, my home station switches to Lite FM. I prefer the world's holiday music without a fake backdrop of holiness. I can enjoy Handel's Messiah on my iPod on any day of the year. It really isn't about Satan's Christmas.

The holiday called Christmas reminds me of the compromise the church made with the symbol of the cross. They said, "We will remove the corpus of Christ and keep the bare cross to symbolize a resurrected Jesus instead". The churches are filled with these kinds of symbols that worshippers need to see and touch in order to feel their religion. In the same spirit of compromise to appear estranged from the world and yet in sync with the world, the church said, "We will give up Halloween, but we will keep Christmas".

I now enjoy a stress-free and truly holy "un-Christmas" every year.

Ro 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

Lu 17:33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.

Mr 8:36 For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?

Tom "LAMBSFURY" Golda wrote the following (emphasis mine):

LAMBSFURY: "While we should never just look to other men, the faithful men of the past can be used as a "guide." If you read the writings of the Christians of the first 3 centuries, whether Justin Martyr, Polycarp, Tertullian, Irenaeusm, Hippoytus, Cyprian, Novatian, Julius Africanus, and many others, we see "great harmony" among them on what they believed....from eternal torment, to the Cross, to Judgment Day and the final resurrection and Christ's literal, visible return. These men, while sinful men of error, are still more "authentic" than anybody today, because they lived so close to the time of Christ, and the time of the apostles. They knew almost firsthand what they declared. For example, Tertullian lived in the 2nd century (born 160AD), and he says:"

TERTULLIAN: "If, therefore, any one shall violently suppose that the destruction of the soul and the flesh in hell amounts to a final annihilation of the two substances, and not to their penal treatment (as if they were to be consumed, not punished), let him recollect that the fire of hell is eternal—expressly announced as an everlasting penalty; and let him then admit that it is from this circumstance that this never-ending “killing” is more formidable than a merely human murder, which is only temporal. He will then come to the conclusion that substances must be eternal, when their penal “killing” is an eternal one. Since, then, the body after the resurrection has to be killed by God in hell along with the soul, we surely have sufficient information in this fact respecting both the issues which await it, namely the resurrection of the flesh, and its eternal “killing.” Else it would be most absurd if the flesh should be raised up and destined to “the killing in hell,” in order to be put an end to, when it might suffer such an annihilation (more directly) if not raised again at all"

lAMBSFURY: "He defeats the annihilation argument.....and his interpretation of scripture, living so close to the time of Christ, is much more authentic than the garbage preached today from Campingland."

"They knew almost firsthand what they declared". Whoa, that seals it for me. Where do I sign up for the ET club?

Tom's old, dead friend, Tertullian (160 A.D.) who lived very close to the time of Christ and the time of the Apostles has not defeated the annihilation argument for me. Not by a long shot. What Tertullian says is just his opinion, which is no different from Lambsfury's opinion or David Hoff's opinion. Not one scripture reference was offered to support the above teaching. And yet, there is Tom, trying very hard to prove that annihilation has been defeated by the words we read from his Tertullian quote. What a presumptuously wild notion, which is really just wishful thinking in Tom's tormented mind.

There certainly is a lot of garbage being preached today from Campingland, but Tom's sermon is also garbage. The only thing that is salvageable from Tom's pitch for eternal torment is his pathetic message that we need the writings of dead men who lived very close to the time of Christ and the time of the Apostles. Tom would actually have us believe that the earlier time in which certain men lived made them "much more authentic" than, say, Harold Camping who was born much too late to be authentic. By Tom's reasoning, we would have to dismiss every teacher born over the course of the last several thousand years, including David Hoff, who is even younger than the too-young Harold Camping.

Just like the Campingites of today who are promoting a false gospel, the false teachings of Tom's church "fathers" gained wide acceptance and have enjoyed much longevity through the ages. Just because they got other doctrines right does not mean they got every one right. This fact should be applied to every pastor and teacher we have ever listened to. Their messages are always some form of a carefully structured sermon consisting of: "Truth, truth, truth, lie, lie, truth, truth, lie, lie, lie, lie, truth, lie, truth, truth, lie, truth, lie, lie, truth lie, truth, truth, lie".

Tom writes: "While we should never just look to other men, the faithful men of the past can be used as a 'guide.'"

First of all, it is only Tom's opinion that the men of the past he admires so much are "faithful men". What does "faithful" mean, anyway? Does it mean they loved the Lord? Does it mean that they were perfect? I can claim that I am "faithful", but what does that mean? Secondly, Tom is careful to note that the men of the past he admires so much are "sinful men of error", but in the same breath he suggests that they can be used as our "guides". If we already know that they are sinful men of error, why would we ever want to look to them as guides? Are the actual, inspired writings of God that were penned by sinful men of error not enough for us? We have the scriptures and if we are Christ's, we have true doctrine. If we are Christ's and do not have true doctrine, then surely, any correction that God determines that we need will come in His perfect time.

There is no need to ever seek the guidance of any man, "pastor" or "teacher", dead or alive. If we do not understand a doctrine, we should patiently and humbly wait for the Spirit's guidance. Did it ever occur to you that you could pray, "Dear Lord, I do not understand Romans 6:23, Revelation 8:1, Mark 13:32, etc....Please help me to understand." Do you have any doubt at all that God will answer your prayer? If you do not receive an answer very soon, then you either are not sincerely seeking the truth, or you do not need to know the answer. God may have better and more important questions to answer for you. Doctrine and correction can come to us through any number of ways, but trusting in men as our guides is definitely not one of them.

What does it mean to use men as a "guide"? If I use someone as a guide, that requires two prerequisites: (1) I must believe that the Holy Spirit is an inadequate teacher, and (2) I must trust my sinful, error-prone guides enough to accept whatever they teach. Therefore, if I acknowledge my inability to understand the scriptures directly by the Spirit's guidance and place my trust in someone I consider to be "faithful", albeit prone to sin and error, that means that I prefer false sheperds over the true Shepherd and am open for any kind of false teaching. Men like Tom Golda who are not able to prove their false doctrines from the Bible must look for other "proofs", such as the opinions of men who lived close to the time of Christ and the time of the Apostles.

What is all the fuss about men like Tertullian who lived close to the time of Christ and close to the time of the Apostles? Guess who also lived close to the time of Christ and the time of the Apostles. The holy men of old who were appointed by God to be our ONLY guides. Guess who else lived close to the time of Christ and the time of the Apostles. The Pharisees. Just because certain men lived close to the time of Christ and the time of the Apostles and also believed in certain true doctrines of the Christian faith, does not mean that they were exempt from satan's agenda any more than the Pharisees who lived even closer to the time of Christ and the time of the Apostles.

The "One" Departout member with the most unwieldy nickname of all replied to Lambsfury's post with this message, which I am stumped by:

"if anything this quote proves that the beasts in Ephesus have been belching out the "new revelation" of annihilationism for two thousand years"

I always find "One's" posts very cryptic. He or she is just too hard to try to figure out, although there may possibly be a good message being conveyed. Unfortunately, a lot of forum members like to think that they are so interesting that readers have followed their every post in great detail, and always know which side of every issue they stand on. I have no idea what "One's" point is above, except that it relates to 1st Corinthians 15:32.

I gain much assurance by reading messages that are posted in forums like Departout (which should have been named DontDepartout). Like the wonderful Shepherd He is, God protects me from men's words that are based on their trust in other men and their love for tradition, by making them sound like babble. Whether they lived close to the time of Christ and the time of the Apostles or are alive today, I cannot make any sense out of what they say - no matter how hard I try. I just don't speak their language. Tertullian, Calvin and their parrots of today who echo their opinions verbatim, like Lambsfury and Pope Peterx, love to show off their book learning with their many fancy words. These verbose, learned professors always remind me of these lyrics, by Paul Simon from his song "Kodachrome":

When I think back on all the [stuff] I learned in high school,
It's a wonder I can think at all,
And though my lack of education hasn't hurt me none,
I can see the writing on the wall.

I can see the writing in God's book and I thank Him that He only lets me hear men's babble.

To satan's delight, false traditions of the church, like the one about eternal torment and souls in heaven before the resurrection will continue to thrive in all groups that gather in person or online, no matter how many date predictions come and go. The peer pressure is exceedingly powerful, as is the need to belong to groups and be accepted by others. There is much saftey in the consensus of others. The groups' creeds must be protected at all costs. This is the only way men who have no faith in Christ can endure unto the end. It is very hard to stand for the truth, because it means that we will become an outcast left with nothing but a Bible and, perhaps, a blog.

Luke 13:1 is a picture of the sudden, unexpected manner in which Christ will appear on the clouds of heaven as the Judge of all the earth.

Lu 13:1 ¶ There were present at that season some that told him of the Galilaeans, whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices.
2 And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things?
3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
4 Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem?
5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

Perishing comes after the resurrection of the dead and the judgment by Christ - unless repentance comes first.

We are pointed to the days of Noah for one reason only: To recognize what the world will be doing when the day of judgment comes. However, the above verses from Luke teach us that there are to be no caravans and billboards erected and no missionary trips around the world to announce the day and hour of Christ's return.

Jesus comes quickly. When sudden destruction comes upon the unsaved, they shall not escape.

1Th 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

However, the saints will escape because they will be found worthy to escape by Jesus Christ, the Judge.

Lu 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Luke 21:36 clearly shows that after the saints are found worthy, they will "stand" before the Son of man. This is not language depicting being caught up in the rapture. Jesus comes as a thief in the night for all, but only His elect will have repented and therefore not be overtaken by the thief.

1Th 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

The Galilaeans did not know. Those who were slain by the tower of Siloam did not know. We are not to think that they were sinners above all others, so the teaching for us is that "no man knoweth", just as it says in Mark 13:32.

Handel's triumphant "Hallelujah Chorus" brings out the joy in all of us. I think this Youtube Random Act of Culture video is fantastic, in spite of the little "devils" at the Clarins makeup counter who were probably wishing the gay apparell they were donning was a little more appropriate.

Hallelujah! trivia: When Handel brought out Messiah at its first London performance, King George II rose to his feet (for reasons unknown) at the moment the chorus began, at which point the rest of the audience rose to its feet as was required. Thus was established a tradition of standing up for the chorus, observed in Great Britain and elsewhere to this day.

Hallelujah! Hallelujah! Hallelujah!

Hallelujah! Hallelujah!

For the Lord God Omnipotent reigneth.

Hallelujah! Hallelujah! Hallelujah! Hallelujah!

For the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.

Hallelujah! Hallelujah! Hallelujah! Hallelujah!

Hallelujah! Hallelujah! Hallelujah!

The kingdom of this world

Is become the kingdom of our Lord,

And of His Christ, and of His Christ;

And He shall reign for ever and ever,

For ever and ever, forever and ever,

King of kings, and Lord of lords,

King of kings, and Lord of lords,

And Lord of lords,

And He shall reign,

And He shall reign forever and ever,

King of kings, forever and ever,

And Lord of lords,

Hallelujah! Hallelujah!

And He shall reign forever and ever,

King of kings! and Lord of lords!

And He shall reign forever and ever,

King of kings! and Lord of lords!

Hallelujah! Hallelujah! Hallelujah! Hallelujah!

Hallelujah!

The below comments were written by a churchman to and about Camping followers:

CHURCHITE: "Have these guys EVER bothered to learn anything about the history of their faith? Or is it all "the good old' Bible" for them? Did nothing get written in that time? No theological thought? No treatises? No scriptural reflection? No commentaries?

And this is quite typical for Camping's followers, I've noticed. It's as though they project their woeful lack of theological education onto their timelines.

Hey, Camping guys! Consider cracking a book or two, occasionally.... like, not just the ol' Bible, but perhaps the occasional theological tome. I know, I know, they're not useful. But consider learning about EARLIER HISTORICAL PERIODS WHEN PEOPLE JUST AS BRIGHT AS YOU ALSO READ THE BIBLE AND THOUGHT ABOUT IT.

Like Duns Scotus. Or Abelard, Aquinas, Bernard of Clairvaux, or Erasmus, or Luther, or Calvin, or Schleiermacher, or ..... (just to name an absolutely teensy minority of sources you might find enlightening).

I genuinely am astonished when HC can sit on his OF program and state, "well, in the past, people read the bible one way, but lately WE'VE been learning...". Sorry, that's an arrogance born of ignorance. Perhaps he thinks that no one in the past thought deeply about either Christianity or the scriptures. Or that they just weren't as sharp as he is. If he bothered himself to get some learnin' about his historical faith, he might have a better appreciation of the fact that they did too think deeply, and that they read the same bible, and that he's walking down an extremely well-trodden path (and not in the good way).

Sometimes I read this stuff and just think my head is going to explode. Church history and theological education still matter, folks. Partly because, ahem, they help prevent our repeating the mistakes of the past."

Ahem, indeed. My own head actually did just explode. How pathetic this all sounds to me. I'm not a Campingite anymore, but I also couldn't care less about "church history" and the treatises and commentaries by the above named theologians.

Hey, Pastorite guys! Consider cracking open the bible occasionally...

Mt 11:25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.

Mt 23:34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:

Ro 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

1Co 1:19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.

1Co 1:20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?

1Co 1:25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;

1Co 3:19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.

Ro 16:27 To God only wise, be glory through Jesus Christ for ever. Amen.

As I mentioned in the Comments section somewhere, these poor pastor lovers are deceived by lies that are very acceptable in Christian circles. The deceptions taught by Harold Camping are obviously foolish, but these protectors of church tradition and history, rather than biblical truth, find safety in numbers. There is no date that can ever help these lost sheep see how their faith also rests in frail men who were sent to deceive. Their message is very clear to me: "Don't follow that false teacher. Follow this whole bunch of false teachers who are much more respected in the eyes of the world".

If we are able to be enlightened by man like Abelard, Erasmus, Luther, Calvin, Schleiermacher, etc., then why would we need the Bible anymore? The message from the Churchites is always, "we must do..." and "we need men".

Churchites are just as bad off as the Campingites, if not worse off. Because they don't make any waves with date predictions, they remain out of the public eye and free from criticism. Except here at Atheolous.

Jer 5:7 How shall I pardon thee for this? thy children have forsaken me, and sworn by them that are no gods: when I had fed them to the full, they then committed adultery, and assembled themselves by troops in the harlots‘ houses.

Lu 17:34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.

Lu 17:35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Lu 17:36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left..

On last night's Closed Open Forum, Harold Camping was telling his audience that the "carcase", or the dead body of Luke represents the unsaved who he claims will be left behind to experience five months of judgment.

The Disciples' Question:

Lu 17:37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, ...

Jesus' Answer:

Lu 17:37 And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.

Harold explained that the question asked by the disciples referred to those who would be left, but that makes no sense at all. In fact, it is downright absurd.

Jesus used three examples of one being taken and one being left at the mill, the field and the bed, and we are supposed to believe that the disciples asked Jesus "where?" in regard to those who are left??? Jesus made it very clear that the one left would stay put at the mill, in the field and in the bed, so I don't understand how Camping can apply the question "Where, Lord?" to the one left, rather than the one taken.

This seems to be how it goes these days. The churches are not much better. Neither group seems to care what is being said, as long as the cherished beliefs are preserved for posterity. It seems that Harold can say anything at all and his callers will still say, "Thank you for explaining it so well". Harold could answer with the preamble to the Constitiution or tomorrow's weather report. It doesn't matter because the callers are sound asleep listening to Daddy reading them their favorite bedtime story.

I'm sorry to be the one to have to say report this information, but the two witnesses are overcome, killed and left dead and unburied in the streets of the great city. They are the dead carcase which is the one taken in Luke 17 and Matthew 24. There is no mention of the unsaved at all in Matthew 24:27-28 which connects the dead carcase to the coming of the Son of man.

Mt 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

A preview of the overcoming and killing of the two witnesses is given in Deuteronomy 28:26.

De 28:26 And thy carcase shall be meat unto all fowls of the air, and unto the beasts of the earth, and no man shall fray them away.

The judgment is promised, "IF":

De 28:15 ¶ But it shall come to pass, if thou wilt not hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to observe to do all his commandments and his statutes which I command thee this day; that all these curses shall come upon thee, and overtake thee:

What we have to understand and accept is, we DID NOT observe the Lord's commandments and His statutes. We DID go after other gods and we served them. We who are the true saints are the dead carcase when we take up our cross and follow Him to Calvary. This is what taking up our cross to follow Him is all about: Accepting judgment.

De 28:14 And thou shalt not go aside from any of the words which I command thee this day, to the right hand, or to the left, to go after other gods to serve them.

A while back I wrote about the need to free Adam for his so-called "fall from grace". I'm now thinking the same thing about Harold Camping.

Adam was not the reason we all sin today and Harold is not the reason a lot of people follow and trust him and believe his calendar-related perversions. Harold Camping does not have power over anyone. He only has a microphone and a worldwide audience. He can't force anyone to listen to him, read his books, hand out his tracts, drive his RV's, send him money, put up billboards, etc.

Ja 1:13 ¶ Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

Reading this blog and other Family Radio related websites, one might think that Harold Camping is the only false teacher on the scene. The fact is, there are a lot of Mr. Campings everywhere and even behind the pulpits in every church around the world. They all teach false traditions of men and the people lap them up. It's very easy and natural to point our fingers at others, but it's time to free Adam and Harold and own up to our own sin problems. I'm not suggesting that false doctrine should not be exposed. But I am suggesting that teachers and pastors cannot cause us to fall.

Ho 4:12 My people ask counsel at their stocks, and their staff declareth unto them: for the spirit of whoredoms hath caused them to err, and they have gone a whoring from under their God.

Who really is at fault?

The below Departout post authored by Pastorite "Frank" on the Campingites' spin on the book 1994? is a good read. Frank also challenges the claim that 2011 was Harold Camping's second choice.

FRANK: "As I continue to peruse the various FR friendly websites, I keep seeing the same deceptive historical revisionism being practiced when it comes to discussing Camping's 1994? book. I find this to be a particularly grievous offense when practiced by men who went through the whole 1994 debacle and continue to follow Camping today. Such men know very well that the current spin being offered about 1994? is dishonest. Yet they practice it anyway so that newer Camping-ites (most of whom have no means of actually reading the book 1994?) will get a different and more distorted picture of the whole deal. So as someone who went through the whole 1994 debacle myself (and read the book 1994? many times), I would like to straighten the record about 2 glaring falsehoods that keep getting repeated about 1994:

Deception/Distortion #1: Camping put a question mark in the title 1994? because he was never quite sure about that date.

That is an outright falsehood. The present day Camping-ite 1994? revisionists want ignorant recent Camping followers to believe that all Camping was doing with the book 1994 was asking a question, as if he were just trying to open up some type of theological discussion about some evidence he found in the Bible that perhaps 1994 would be the end. If you actually read the book, it is quite clear that is NOT what the question mark was about. Mr. Camping says quite clearly in the book that "the time for debate is over". That is not the statement of someone who is simply raising a question or trying to start a discussion. Also, over the Open Forum program in those days Camping quite frequently referred to those who rejected the 1994 date as the "wicked" of Daniel 12:10. If you actually read the book, you will realize the purpose of the question mark was exactly the opposite of what Camping and his spin doctors are saying today. The purpose of the question mark was not any self doubt on the part of Harold Camping. Camping put the question mark on the cover as an enticement for people to buy the book, read it, and find that within the book Harold Camping would then answer the question for them. And of course Harold's answer was "YES" Christ would return in 1994. Yes, we know he made a few statements here and there that there might be a very slight possibility he could be wrong, but then he contradicted those statements all over the place with statements that either stated or implied that 1994 was a virtual certainty. He was doing one thing with his right hand and another with his left. He made it sound like 1994 was a certainty so that his followers' consciences would be bound to accept it, yet he dropped a few statements here and there to leave himself a tiny escape route just in case he was wrong. And he was.

Deception/Distortion #2: Camping had always offered 2011 as an alternate date for Christ's return, including within 1994?

This is an example of where a partial truth is twisted into a total falsehood. Yes it's true that in the book 1994? Camping did mention the fact that he had briefly considered 2011 as a possible date of Christ's return. But then within the book he explicitly discarded the 2011 date because he didn't believe there was enough biblical evidence to support it. He even went on to say in the book that no other date besides 1994 could possibly fit into the biblical timelines as the date of Christ's return. It is intellectually dishonest for the Camping-ites to speak as if 1994 and 2011 were always vying for the top spot on Mr. Camping's list of possible dates for Christ's return, and that 1994 just edged out 2011 by a hair and that's why Camping wrote 1994? instead of 2011? That's not how it was. The truth is that 1994 was presented as the only reasonable option, and 2011 was dismissed as a date that would not ultimately work.

Now I expect that all the Camping-ites will start to chime in now and tell us that Camping "didn't have all the information" back in 1994. That is not the point however. What I'm talking about here is the intellectual dishonesty of those who say that Camping always had doubts about 1994 and that's why he added the question mark to the book title, and that 2011 was always on the table as a strong possibility as the date of Christ's return. Neither of those things are even close to being true. If the Camping-ites wish to argue the "more information was found" defense, fine. But tell the truth to the newer Camping-ites and say that Camping was completely wrong about his 1994 predictions. Tell them the truth that Camping did NOT have any significant doubts about his 1994 prediction. Tell them the truth that in the book 1994? 2011 was discarded as a possible date for Christ's return. Stop spinning history to make it look like Camping was always basically correct and that all that's happened since 1994 is that a few things have been tweaked here and there. That's NOT true. In his book 1994? Camping made BOLD and CONFIDENT statements about truths that we now know are false. Now if people are aware of this and wish to believe his 2011 predictions anyway, fine. That's their choice. But I'm tired of the historical revisionism that is being foisted upon those who did not live through the 1994 failure. Let's be honest about history, set the record straight, and let people make their decision about 2011 based on honest and accurate information."

Ec 6:3 If a man beget an hundred children, and live many years, so that the days of his years be many, and his soul be not filled with good, and also that he have no burial; I say, that an untimely birth is better than he.

Burial of dead bodies in the Scriptures signifies the blessing and approval of God on the survivors and also the nation. The defilement of the land from unburied bodies is evidence that God's approval has been withdrawn. After their testimony is finished, the two witnesses are overcome and killed and their dead bodies are left unburied. This is a significant prophecy that cannot be ignored.

Re 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.

How could the two witnesses be buried since they represent all elect? There are none to bury them, because they are all overcome and killed. They are all in the same sunken boat.

Ps 79:1 ¶ A Psalm of Asaph. O God, the heathen are come into thine inheritance; thy holy temple have they defiled; they have laid Jerusalem on heaps.
2 The dead bodies of thy servants have they given to be meat unto the fowls of the heaven, the flesh of thy saints unto the beasts of the earth.
3 Their blood have they shed like water round about Jerusalem; and there was none to bury them.
4 We are become a reproach to our neighbours, a scorn and derision to them that are round about us.
5 How long, LORD? wilt thou be angry for ever? shall thy jealousy burn like fire?

It seems fairly obvious to me that the elect two witnesses represent the "one taken" who are the carcase (meat) for the great sacrifice upon the mountains of Israel (Luke 17:34-36, Ezekiel 39:17).

"We are become a reproach" (Ps. 79:4). Elisabeth was hidden for five months and Noah was hidden in the ark during the five months' of the flood's rains.

Ps 44:13 Thou makest us a reproach to our neighbours, a scorn and a derision to them that are round about us.
14 Thou makest us a byword among the heathen, a shaking of the head among the people.

It cannot be denied that these verses highlight the state of the two witnesses after their testimony is finished and they are overcome, killed, and left in the street of the great city unburied.

Jer 14:15 Therefore thus saith the LORD concerning the prophets that prophesy in my name, and I sent them not, yet they say, Sword and famine shall not be in this land; By sword and famine shall those prophets be consumed.
16 And the people to whom they prophesy shall be cast out in the streets of Jerusalem because of the famine and the sword; and they shall have none to bury them, them, their wives, nor their sons, nor their daughters: for I will pour their wickedness upon them.

The important thing to rememeber is that this is not the end of the story. There is still salvation.

Atheolous

Friday, December 31, 2010

This Do In Remembrance of Me

Thursday, December 30, 2010

Harold Camping's Lamentations (#2)

Tuesday, December 28, 2010

Three Posts on a Snow Day!

The Seven Women of Isaiah 4:1

Harold Camping's Lamentations

"As Oft As Ye" vs. "Till He Come"

Monday, December 27, 2010

The Great Multitude out of the Great Tribulation

Pot, Kettle; Church, Family Radio

Sunday, December 26, 2010

Merry vs. Sorrowful

Saturday, December 25, 2010

Dare To Be A Simon

Friday, December 24, 2010

No Spiritual Death Through Adam

Dare To Be A Shadrach

Wednesday, December 22, 2010

The Believer's Whole Witness

Monday, December 20, 2010

Christmas Gifts

Satan's Christmas

Sunday, December 19, 2010

Eternal Torment Babble

Saturday, December 18, 2010

They Did Not Know

Friday, December 17, 2010

Hallelujah! in Philadelphia Macy*s Store

Advice From a Churchite

Thursday, December 16, 2010

The Two Witnesses: The Carcase

Tuesday, December 14, 2010

Free Harold

Monday, December 13, 2010

The 1994? Question Mark

The Two Witnesses: Unburied